What really killed the US auto industry...

bakes

Veteran
It's not the unions or the designers or the engineers... nope. It comes down to something more basic:  beancounters.

You know the type, if you work in any corporate structure:  the bureaucrat whiose sole job is to control costs no matter what the outcome and, when you bring up something to counter his worldview, he brings up data from "focus groups" or "research."

These are the people who take the original intent of the designers and make it "cost effective for production."  For example, hideous as it was, here's the original Pontiac Aztek show car:

pontiac_aztec.jpg


And here's the dowdy looking production version:

02.pontiac.aztek.f34.500.jpg


Want to know what happened between the two pictures?  Some whiny middle nmanagement guy with a bad suit said "Hmmm, noooo, that hood's gonna cost too much, if you use a standard understructure we'll save $30.00 per unit" and "Hmmm, nooo, the stainlesss steel effect on the roof rails will cost $8.50 per unit, it has to go, hmm..." 

Bits and pieces add up, and you end up with a road-going pig of a car.  People don't buy it because they don't want to be seen in it - yet if they would have left some of the more interesting details in place people would be more likely to buy it or consider buying it, even if it cost $200 more because it seems like a car designed to be what it is, niot de-contented to meet some price point set by a know-nothing manager.

Which leads me to a second and related issue - they just out-think themselves.  Take nameplates for example.  Everyone here has a mental image of what a Buick LeSabre or a Pontiac Grand Am or a Ford Taurus is.  We *know* what they are.  So in comes some marketing genius who says "We need something to really let people know that this is a new car!  Let's change the name!!!" 

::)

So we get things like a Buick Lacrosse - the hell size car is that?  Ford 500?  Is that a car or a Nascar race?  G6? Way to build name equity.  Do you see Honda changing the names on its Accord or Toyota on its Camry?  No, and for good reason - they *get* it.  Ford comes out with something called a Flex:

Ford_flex_414.jpg


No, I'm sorry, I grew up at Ford dealers and that thing there is a Country Sedan, unless there's panelling on it, then it's a Country Squire.

Think back a few years.  Chevy had the Malibu for 20 years.  Out comes the new model and they call it... CORSICA!  HAH?!?!?!?  And it differs from a Celebrity... how?  Two cars fighting for the same market at the same dealership at the same time, all because some GM beancounter wanted to amortize the tooling cost of the Celebrity soi they kept it in production for 100 years.

Which leads me to my final point - people know when you rehash old cars, Mr. Beancounter. Cavaliers were good cars at first - then they kept it in production for 20 years.  Yes, they put new sheetmetal on it, but underneath it's the same, and you're not going to sell many old new cars when there's a brand new Corolla across the street.  People know what old lfeels like.  The infernal part is that GM developed and sold its replacement in Europe - twice! - during the original's lifespan.  Wonder what the cost of bringing that tooling over would have been as opposed to the cost of facelifting the tired old dog they had here.  Bet the beancounter would know, down to the penny.  Yes, changes would eed to be made to meet federal regulations, but still - how many more of the truly new cars would they have sold?

Look at the new Focus.  Doors look familar?  Thought so.  Rehash.  There's a new Focus on sale in Europe, but again, Mr. Beancounter has a better idea.

The funny part?  I just rented a new Malibu for a few days, and it's a fine car.  The only issue I had with it was a GM peculiarity that needs to be destroyed as quickly as possible:  autolocking doors.  Kill this.

rant over...
 
American car makers shipped all the assembly jobs to Mexico, paying them a whopping $4 an hour, none of those people could afford to buy their $30,000 vehicles and unfortunately the people who was buying them lost their jobs to Mexico. HUH GO FIGURE! Can you say Corporate greed.....
 

leadfoot4

Champion
Back to the cars..... There is a market segment that wants cars that "corner". As most gearheads know, FWDers don't corner, but they ARE somewhat cheaper to make. Furthermore, the earlier ones, without ABS, were a ton of fun to getted stopped in the snow without doing a 360. So, what do the bean counters do? Make all FWDers, and simply assume that the market will just say, "Aw shucks, I guess we'll have to settle for one of those damned things".....

Well, the market didn't, and suddenly small BMWs and Benzes became a hot commodity, leaving Detroit in the dust. Then, they dragged their feet for 20 years, before they started trickling out a few new RWDers. In the meantime, a large chunk of market share was gone forever.

The real culprit, however, is the "tree hugging" EPA. Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that air/water/ground pollution is a good thing, but the current regulations are SO stringent, we can hardly manufacture anything in the US anymore. Along with the loss of jobs, and the revenue they could create, this could be a serious handicap if another world war broke out, and our "allies" suddenly flip us off, and we can't make anything to defend ourselves with...
 

Modfan6

Newbie
I don't know what to think? I tried to be a good American.  Went ouy one day and bought a new Silverado for myself and a new Jeep for the wife. Took the Jeep in for some service work on a problem I was detecting in the front suspension ONLY to find out that the only problem was No One torqued the lower control arms tight!?!?!?  Are you kidding me????????? Even better, the service guy tells me that they had numreous issues with the same thing and that a warning was sent to the dealers, but no recall was coming because it hadn't been reported enough time!?!?! HUH?????????????
 

Indian

Veteran
The thing I find funny, and I'm not bashing here, the same people that are crying now that the American factory worker is as dead as Michal Jackson. Are the same people that kept that clown Clinton in office, the same clowns that elected his lying joke of a phyco wife to office in a state that they never even lived in.

Yeah Clinton was a main contributor to NAFTA, But what the eh? He's out of office, the two biggest con-people in the history of America are filthy rich.........So now what do you all think of his genius as far as the economy? Like it or not those are the facts. Those of us that said it long ago can sit back and say.....Told ya so.

Bean counters my butt, more like government greed, kick backs, and world politics try.
 
One time presidential candidate Ross Perot famously said that if the NAFTA bill passes we Americans are going to hear a huge sucking sound of American manufacturing jobs leaving the good ole USA, and now 20 years later, he is right Its S.U.C.K.I.N.G
 

JDK34j

Rookie
As the Union's fought for it's employees to make $20.00 + an hour to push a button once every 3 min, who did they think the company owners were going to place this cost on? US, the buyer. That is why we pay 20k for a 10k vehicle, what did everyone think was going to happen? Blame whomever you wish but the Unions have to take a realistic look at what they did to the industry. Why do you think we are being outpriced daily by non-union companies. JMO
 
Listen the vehicles being built in Mexico right now , Im talking GM Ford and Chryslers by  mexican workers making less than $3 an hour are still the same price as if they were built by us workers, why is that do you suppose?
 
If you did not have Unions in place over the past 100 years, Corporations would run a muck, yes some unions got greedy, but wholly crap man Coporate Greed is Out of controll, workers being laid off and CEO;s getting bonus payouts, come on WTF, UNION WORKERS ARE THE BACK BONE OF THIS COUNTRY
 
Indian
              You think the clintons screwed things up!! Wait till Obama gets done with this country. He is sticking his nose in everything and handing out money to everybody except for the working guy. And if it wasn`t for Fox news he would probably have everbody in the country  brain washed with cult preachings  Meanwhile all the towlheads are going to terroize the world  While he tries to make them beleive we are their friends. I`m sure i`ll here alot of crap from Obama lovers but!!!
 

NSracing

Rookie
Another thing about this. People buy Hyundai accent for like 16 thousand dollars. You can drive a 2007 Chevy impala get the same gas mileage as the Hyundai. For the same price. Than there is the azera for like 25,000 + when you can drive a new impala, taurus, or fusion. They get the same mileage. WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Use your head. I know there is no real "American car" but help the people somewhat. Do you really wanna buy a car too from a fat annoying guy. I don't think he listens to himself when he talks. He doesn't make sense.

One more point. I know some Toyota cars are made in America. The owner of Toyota still gets the money in Japan. The money doesn't stay here.

Attack me all you want. Don't get offended or upset This is part of the reason. I'm just using Hyundai as an example. I do believe this is part of the problem. If you care about the US auto industry buy an American car. Like what I said if you can't afford a 20,000 dollar Chevy impala. Don't buy a Hyundai (this includes most of the foreign ones)buy an used American car that gets the same mileage. For the same price.

The American car industries need to make a cheaper more stylish car as well. This is just one of the reasons why the US auto industry is bad. I believe people are just greedy as well.
 

leadfoot4

Champion
dirtracefan said:
Listen, the vehicles being built in Mexico right now , I'm talking GM, Ford, and Chryslers by Mexican workers making less than $3 an hour are still the same price as if they were built by US workers, why is that do you suppose?

Because they still have to pay the $3000/month pensions of the current retirees, the cost of the health care/prescription plans of the current retirees, and all of the other costs incurred by rolling over for the UAW in the 70s and 80s. Those fixed overhead costs will take quite a long time to purge from the system.

The "baby boomers" (and yes, I'm one of them) created a huge demand for manufactured goods, and the American industrial base stepped up to provide those goods and services. However, as we boomers age and die off, (Obama and the libs are pledging to helping this happen more quickly) there isn't as large a market to take up the slack of this excess capability we have. Some adjustments will be required....
 
R

racingwrench

Guest
It's all over, I think it's way too late for the U.S. of A. to overcome the hand it dealt itself. Corporate profits and politics are the blame. So yes the bean-counters definitely are part , but it goes all the way to the board room.

Corporate America bought our two party system for pennies on the dollar, there short term strategy of returning shareholder profit, never looked at  public survival as part of the equation and long term there is absolutely no strategy. It's easy to see the result's.

The real question is should the taxpayer prop up these millionaire shareholders. I think not.
Especially since the same mentality prevails, all they want is their short term profit. Screw with the blue collar workers, they're paid too much and their benefits are eating profit.

So who's going to buy the overtaxed, overpriced, and inferior product..

I don't see us shipping cars to China, in fact our automakers went to China and licensed plants so the Chinese could steal the tooling and counterfeit their products, ain't that right Chrysler!

The answer? will become evident after the whole mess melts down.

America is in a very bad position, we have the technology that leads the world, but we need to stop giving so freely. After Iraq and Afghanistan our war chest is spread pretty thin.

Glad to get that off my chest.

Dave
 

Indian

Veteran
I wonder where that toyota@what-ever joker is? Love to have him post in this thread. But hey, the guy can't even write the English language correctly, mush less support our own industry/country. ::)
 

canadianfan

Veteran
up here (Canada) we are flooded with Korean car dealerships, but somehow we can't export North American made cars to Korea. So much for free trade. Conservative Party in Canada brought it in 25 years ago and it just killed local mfg. once the tariff barriers were dropped. It made money for the lobbyists, party bagmen, and middlemen but the middle class ended up much worse off. The rich just got richer. To try and make Canadian industry competitive with US manufacturers, the government dropped the value of the Canadian dollar to give their mfg friends a boost. Made them rich but killed our standard of living. They are now sweating bullets now that the Cdn buck is worth 94 cents US.
Current government won't cut back on immigration, even with current high unemployment, as it keeps the minimum wage low!
I'm old enought to remember when Canada produced cars almost strictly for its' own market due to trade regulations. We had a stripped down Mercury called a Meteor, A Ford Falcon called a Frontenac sold by Merc dealers. A Chevy II called an Acadian and A Chevelle called a Beaumont both sold by Pontiac dealers here as we didn't get the Lemans. Mid 50s to 1967 Canadian Pontiacs were actually Chevs with Pontiac bodywork. Funny-Ford Canada made money in those days producing for the Canadian market. Having trade barriers seemed to work ok.
And the 70s Japanese cars rusted out in this market worse than the British imports!
 

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